When Catalan nationalists talk about legal issues they delight the world with truly hilarious moments. Well-known activist Carles Boix -unaware of the double sense of the word "Jura"- has claimed that "the situation is similar to the case of the French Jura, which wanted to become independent from the Canton of Bern in 1977. Althought the Constitution did not foresee this possibility, the will of the Jura prevailed and this Canton joined the Swiss confederation two years later."
First of all, if you speak of French Jura it's the Département Jura in France that comes to mind. But indeed, the French-speaking Swiss Jura did split away from Canton Bern, or part of it at least. Secondly, this was made possible by changing the Swiss Constitution, for which a referendum was held in the whole country. This is precisely what Catalan separatist do not envisage for their own case, refusing calls to separate legally by, in a first step, changing the Spanish Constitution, for which also a referendum in the whole of Spain would be necessary. This might turn out to be impossible, but they don't even want to try. Their slogan is "we're in a hurry", clearly trying to ride the wave of discontent and even despair created by the economic crisis.
However, Mr Boix sees the Jura as analogous not to Catalonia's position in Spain, but to its relations with the EU. His argument is that Catalonia should stay in the EU through an option of "internal enlargement". He does not consider that EU law is, obviously, different to Swiss law. What is more, the arrogance he displays is breathtaking. The article ends with "let's go our own way calmly [...] and then [...] we will negotiate the terms under which we want to stay in Europe." Good luck with that!
Ignorance and arrogance, an explosive mix. The next example of it comes from Alfred Bosch, member of the Spanish parliament for separatists ERC, a position he gained after co-heading the faux referendum. Here's a Twitter exchange about the recent Declaration of Sovereignty of the Catalan parliament:
In this last tweet Mr Bosch linked to the ICCPR I had mentioned before, albeit he does so to its Spanish version, which speaks of "el derecho de libre determinación", which in turn Mr Bosch translated back into English as "free determination", calling this "the exact wording".
I linked to the English version, and then, to sum up all his shortcomings, I shot three more tweets at him, the first two pointing out that he got the Declaration of Sovereignty wrong, and that the right of self-determination does not apply to the Catalan case.
The third of those tweets led to the end of our debate:
Amazing.
Case number three: How can we expect a politician to know anything if professionals don't know their own field! Cue a "legal analysis" of the Committee for the Defence of People's rights and the Free Legal Practice of the Barcelona Bar Association. An English version has been provided by Helpcatalonia. But I will do the translation myself of one crucial part:
"The same [Montevideo] Convention establishes that the political existence of a state is independent of recognition by the other states. This principle, known as constitutive theory of the state..."
Wrong! The constitutive theory of statehood is precisely what the Montevideo Convention is not about. It is about the declarative theory of statehood. Here is the English Wiki, and here is the Catalan one. Both coincide here, obviously. "Article 3 of the Montevideo Convention declares that statehood is independent of recognition by other states. In contrast, recognition is considered a requirement for statehood by the constitutive theory of statehood."
It could not be more hilarious: the whole argumentation of this paper rests on this point.
Way to go, lawyers. Who is going to take you seriously anymore?
Case number four: this one takes arrogance and idiocy to a whole new level. Yes, it's still possible. Here is an extract of the TV3 program Singulars, from January 30. If an independent Catalonia cannot stay in the EU, let's call the Chinese navy. Says Jordi Molins.
Enjoy the video, no further comment is necessary.
Update: Doubts are still being groomed by Catalan separatists about the position of an independent Catalonia re the EU. Compare that to reality.
"If part of the territory of a Member State would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the Treaties would no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory."
(The Scotsman, December 10, 2012)


This cannot be a serious program, can it?
ReplyDeleteWho the hell is the clown on the video?
ReplyDeleteAll these people are regarded as very serious in Catalonia. Google their names, that already gives an idea.
ReplyDeleteMr Molins is presented as a physicist and hedge fund manager. Here's the original program and description: http://www.tv3.cat/videos/4441651/Jordi-Molins-Testimoni-duna-crisi-anunciada
Here is how Mr Molins presents himself in another place:
http://blogs.e-noticies.com/farstar.html "Rationalempiristic ideology".
And here's a text of his where he opposes the name, but not the concept, of the Catalan Lands. He advocates for a new name: Mediterrània.
http://blogs.e-noticies.com/estrelles-llunyanes/paisos_catalans_no_mediterrania.html
It seems he belongs to this new literary genre: independence-fiction.
DeleteIndeed, the presenter, Jaume Barberà -a separatist himself- calls this idea "a bit of science fiction", to then warn that China is a dictatorship: "I don't think it would be great for Catalonia if the Chinese came to defend us."
DeleteTo which Molins first answers that Catalonia would not be part of China, but that this would be a pact between two sovereign states, comparing it to treaties between Ukraine and Russia.
Then he goes again about this being only a very remote possibility, only for the case that "the European Union listens to the Spanish nationalists and pushes us out of the European Union." But that Europe would never run this risk and let Catalonia stay in the EU.
Now, it's also quite hilarious how Molins twice speaks of the "democratic, civilised and nonviolent manner" with which Catalonia would attain independence.
Not to mention that I cannot envision any admiral with an IQ above 50 (and they usually have a quite high one) not protesting high and loud if ordered to lead a war at such distance of his bases and with a such long and frail line of communications passing through the 60m wide Suez Canal or the Gibraltar Strait. And I doubt any Chinese president would accept a such risk to the Chinese Navy for, Kat Kuo, si es que logra encontrarla en el mapa. This guy must have been very, very, very high on crack to enjoy such fantasies.
DeleteYou're right on all points but the last one. Nationalism is a powerful drug. It's the cocaine of the people.
DeleteCatalina, province of China. No more to say.
ReplyDeleteSo right.
DeleteWhy China? Russia was PSUC's arms supplier in the 30s, relationships between the Eastern bloc mafias and CiU appear to be flourishing, and Laporta's trips to Uzbekistan weren't just about football.
ReplyDeleteHush, they sent this guy to throw us off track. Now you're gonna ruin it.
DeleteThis is all very entertaining and I enjoy laughing at idiots like the one in the Singulars video too. But it's not really relevant to anything.
ReplyDeleteI hoped that when your blog returned it would have taken on board the changed situation, with some recognition that the entire state of Spain is on the edge of collapse. No apparent awareness of that situation. So we'll spend our time playing pedantic little games with the Cataloonies, something enjoyable to distract us while the ship goes down.
If you're serious about "observing how democracy got lost", instead of taunting the hopeless little figures on the fringes of nationalist discourse, you might like to consider how the prime minister Mariano Rajoy can appear in all seriousness in front of a room full of journalists on a TV monitor to avoid awkward questions about slush funds, or how Princess Cristina can escape prosecution in the Nóos Case, or how a 75 year old man is going to go on trial tomorrow charged with "insults against the crown" and face 15 months in prison, or how the PP can reject an ILP calling for reform of the mortgage law while accepting another one declaring bullfighting "a national treasure".
Plenty to crusade about there without needing to mutually-masturbate quite so regularly with Alfred Bosch or fiddle with the volume controls on TV3 reports that nobody watches ("Parlament" on 3/24? Estimated audience 203, of whom 168 are dozing on the sofa).
Forget about the delusional minnows, oh great freedom fighter for democracy. They're not worthy of your critical powers. Go after the great white sharks, if you dare.
Oh, don't dare me, Murph. This is Cataloniawatch, not Spainwatch. And there's a lot been written both domestically and internationally about the issues you have -rightfully- brought up.
DeleteLet me make two points: fundamental positions of the radical fringe have entered mainstream nationalist discourse. You can find that mentioned here http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/12/vile-web.html
and here
http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/where-will-it-end-reply-to-guardian.html
Secondly, forging a constitutional crisis in the midst of an economic one is just irresponsible. So I do think I'm talking about much more than just some silly and negligible stuff.
Well, and then there's the time factor. I can't cope with everything.
That said, I'm glad you spoke up. And you have all the space you want here to expose your ideas. You can also get a guest entrance, if you like.
Now that is a truly responsible attitude, to go to other people's blogs to tell them what they should and shouldn't write about.
DeleteI can show you hundreds of blogs and news outlets that criticize Rajoy, Princess Cristina and the general collapse of the Spanish State. Please show me one, just one (in Catalonia) that criticizes this guy who expressed his brilliant idea about China in a show with a large audience on public television. I mean, of course, one that criticized him BEFORE Cataloniawatch did.
Dear Candide, first of all: dobrodošao natrag! It's always a pleasure to argue with you. Let's begin then:
ReplyDelete1) Regarding the Jura case...
1.1) A cantonal poll was held first.
From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_separatism
"[...] On 23 June 1974, a cantonal poll was held resulting in the decision to form a new canton of Jura [...]"
1.2) The "Mouvement Indépendantiste Jurassien" is still active and pursues the secession from la "Confédération Helvetique"
http://amcpacer.free.fr/mij/pages/fr/manifeste.html
2)Regarding whether the right of self-determination applies or not to the Catalan case...
CONFERENCE ON SECURITY AND CO-OPERATION IN EUROPE, FINAL ACT, HELSINKI 1 August 1975
[...] By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self- determination of peoples, all peoples always have the right, in full freedom, to determine, when and as they wish, their internal and external political status, without external interference, and to pursue as they wish their political, economic, social and cultural development. [...]
http://www.hri.org/docs/Helsinki75.html#H4.8
Thanks. Nice to see you're learning Croatian now.
DeleteNothing against 1.1, and I have nothing against a referendum in Catalonia per se either. 1.2 shows even more how wrong Mr Boix was. I didn't want to bring this up, too many details. So thanks.
Helsinki refers explicitly to international law, so I say again, the right of self-determination is a complicated thing, and according to Catalan academic Jaume López does not apply here. I have discussed this point in
http://iberosphere.com/2013/01/spain-catalonia-scrupulously-ridiculous/7796
You can find a link to an analysis by Mr López there.