Saturday, June 23, 2012

Undemocratic Beyond Any Reasonable Doubt

This blog is most obviously not "out" anymore, the peace of mind its maker sought lies shattered. But I blame noone else.

This will be a long text, so I promise you a lot of pictures.


I will make the case that Catalonia is virtually threatening the territorial integrity of its neighbours, be them other comunidades autónomas or states. I concede from the start that this aggression as of yet has not left the level of being virtual, in the sense of there being no official policy to this end on the side of the government of Catalonia, yet I will make it clear that the threat level is nevertheless high enough to be reckoned with.

My understanding is that the latest measures announced by the government of neighbouring Aragon are a reaction to recent developments in Catalonia. You will find that I disregard, but do not refute, the possibility of these recent developments in Catalonia being themselves a reaction to other phenomena. I so do for three reasons: the hen/egg problem has to be tackled at some stage, this is the stage in which I understand that the Catalan problem has gone territorial, i.e. one that affects not only the territory of Catalonia proper, and, as History has shown us, the favourite stage for political disputes to mutate into war is more often than not when they become about territories.

My focus will therefore be on pancatalan ideology.

For starters, let me run before you an interpellation by Salvador Cardús i Ros. Do keep in mind that he is one of Catalonia's prominent intellectuals and a political scientist who in the past years has been deeply involved in the public debate about Catalonia's fate. [Wikipedia] [Homepage] Although with less success than, for example, Ferran Requejo, he has written many articles in the press, he has been much interviewed, he has starred at several conferences and he is or has been a prominent member of some local associations that defend, or purport to defend, the Catalan religion culture, such as Plataforma per la llengua and Sobirania i Progrés.

When I claimed that the president of Catalonia Mr Artur Mas had his share of responsibility in pancatalanism getting, so to say, out of the playground of extremist wet dreams into real life by participating in a certain referendum (a point I will show to be true further on), Mr Cardús responded: "What makes you think that the referendum was about the 'països catalans' when that was not stated anywhere? Where does this come from?"

Exhibit A, Mr Cardús's tweet:









That entry has been amended several times, and it's now quite a mess. So here are the two main points that show why it is justified to call the referendum on independence that struck Catalonia between 2009 and 2011 a faux referendum. A hoax. Or more precisely: a scam.



Exhibit B:








This is the official poster of the faux referendum calling for the first round of voting on December 13, 2009. As we can clearly see, the territory marked with the question mark corresponds to that of the "Països Catalans", or Catalan Lands. Not only to Catalonia proper. The referendum was conducted only in Catalonia proper.



The same poster was also in use during the second round, on February 28, 2010.



If anybody doubts its veracity, here is a newspaper article that shows several leaders of the Catalunya Decideix movement that organised the faux referendum exhibiting the poster.



The photo from that article is exhibit C:








Secondly, the intention of referring to the Catalan Lands was later confirmed by the lady you see above, Mrs Anna Arqué, spokesperson of the campaign, in an interview with Basque newspaper Gara. Here is the translation of the corresponding passage.


Exhibit D:

"Last Sunday's question referred to the "Catalan nation". What map do you have in mind when using this term?

That of the Catalan Lands: the Principality [i.e. Catalonia proper], Valencia, the Franja [in Aragon], the Balearic Islands, Northern Catalonia [in France] and Alghero [in Sardinia, Italy]."

Presented with this evidence that indeed the Catalan Lands were referred to, and much so, Mr Cardús withdrew to another objection, pertaining to my original point of seeking responsibility for the most recent turn of events (re Aragon) on the highest Catalan level because Catalan president Artur Mas had participated in that referendum, and voted "yes" on the question "Do you agree that the Catalan nation should become an independent state, under the rule of law, democratic, social and integrated into the European Union?".

Additionally, it has to be mentioned that almost all of Mas's ministers participated in the referendum. Although the votes of some of them are unknown, it is clear that they lent legitimacy to the act.

On another note, Mr Mas's predecessor and political godfather, the grand figure of Catalan nationalism who in the past months has increasingly operated as an éminence grise of Catalan politics, Mr Jordi Pujol, also participated and has made known that his vote was, as Mr Mas's, affirmative. The same is true for Barcelona's now mayor Mr Xavier Trias.

We will come back later to this, let us first observe Mr Cardús's last line of defense.

Exhibit E:




Translation: "@Cataloniawatch I do not deny the ambiguities and incoherences of the organisers. I say that the vote responded to a clear question."

Now, the case has to be made, and I so did before Mr Cardús (who thereafter no longer replied, but was informed  of my intentions to write a blog entry on the matter and has explicitly been offered the possibility to make a concluding statement)  that the question was all but clear. As with Mr Cardús, I refer you to the first sentence of the entry on the Catalan Wikipedia about Catalanism: "Catalanism, or Catalan nationalism, is a social current that is structured both socially and politically and which preserves and promotes the recognition of the political (Catalan nation), as well as linguistic, cultural and national personality of Catalonia or the whole of the territories of Catalan language, the so called Catalan Lands."

"Catalan nation" is an ambiguous term. May Wikipedia suffice here as an authority for something that is anyway widely know.

This point, jointly with Artur Mas's role in the whole unsavoury affair, will be treated after briefly shedding some light on Mr Cardús's political background.

On his homepage there are three videos from a conference on the faux referendum, one understands that he is promoting it.

Exhibit F, a screenshot:



Clearly visible in the background behind Mr Cardús is the February 28 poster of the faux referendum showing the Catalan Lands with the trademark question mark.

Moreover, Mr Cardús is first-day signer of Sobirania i Progrés's manifesto.

Exhibit G:



Sobirania i Progrés's manifesto speaks not of Catalonia, but of the Catalan Lands, for which it wants "sovereignty".


Mr Cardús is a moderate insofar as it is hard to find him hurraying the Catalan Lands incessantly. But sometimes he does.

Exhibit H:



That much about Mr Cardús. How such a prominent talking head with that level of personal insight could be ignorant of the true ambitions of the faux referendum is anybody's guess. To cut him some slack, I personally had the impression that he was being honestly taken by surprise. A surprise that sheds some interesting light on the goings-on in this part of the world: Mr Cardús's ignorance can be seen as symptomatic for a more general carelessness.

Let's now close this chapter and move to the last issue Mr Cardús raised. The very question asked at the referendum. The one about the "Catalan nation".

As we have established, the term is ambiguous. We have also shown that the organisers consistently interpreted the term as "Catalan Lands", at least until February 28, 2010. I have no record on the same poster being used after that date. Its is a conjecture, but it seems fair to conclude that at that later stage the "ambiguities and incoherences" Mr Cardús mentioned kicked in, maybe by design,  because somebody had realised that promoting the Països Catalans could blow up into the organisers' faces.

It ultimately did not, not in their faces....

The term "Catalan nation" being ambiguous, the door was open so that everybody could interpret the question on independence the way they saw fit.

This leads to two conclusions. The first is that if we accept the above premiss, the faux referendum was a total mess, with two different question being subjectively asked. Secondly, the part of the voters that understood Catalonia proper instead of Catalan Lands was later kidnapped -or rather votenapped- by Anna Arqué, in the name of all the organisers (nobody ever contradicted her), see again her Gara interview.

As to Artur Mas, we have to once more recapitulate: the organisers of the referendum, as virtually all Catalan separatists, have a pancatalan orientation. That is a known reality. And the term "Catalan nation" was intrinsically defined during at least the first half of the referendum as meaning Catalan Lands by the posters we have seen.

One has to conclude that the president of Catalonia, who has the obligation to be better informed than the average citizen, was either very uninformed about his own country, or that he did indeed support the idea of creating a new state in Europe that would include all territories in which Catalan is historically spoken, such as those that lie in neighbouring Aragon, and that he was supported in this idea by his predecessor Jordi Pujol and the large majority of his own ministers. Or that he simply didn't care for such "details".

It is now clear why the government of Aragon had to perceive this faux referendum as a threat to the territorial integrity of its region. A threat that came from both Catalan "civil society" and that region's political elite. Not a clear and direct threat but a virtual one, as I have claimed at the start. However, one has to concede that its virtual character does not offer much comfort, to say the least.

The relations between Catalonia and Aragon are poisoned since then. This can be in noone's interest. Mr Mas did not have the necessary vision to anticipate that his own actions would have such an unsettling outcome. He has learned dangerously little from History. Instead, he has insisted much on the personal nature of his vote. This makes him a frivolous politician unfit to lead any region or country.

I therefore request that he be removed from office.



Coda:

The undemocratic nature of the faux referendum has been obvious at every stage. Its organisers had a territory in mind that was much larger than the territory in which the referendum took place, which was only Catalonia proper.

In addition to that, they were not neutral to the outcome, in spite of their reiterated claims that every vote counted no matter which way it went.

To illustrate that, let's have a look at a press article. And let me ask you: What is wrong with this photo?



The article puts the date of the photo at April 10, 2011, latest. The very day the faux referendum had arrived at its last stage in Barcelona. Voting day.

Someone is apparently making propaganda for a yes vote. But who? Just look what's there on top of the table: books.

More precisely, copies of this book:



A book that was ready for delivery two days before the Barcelona referendum. A book made by some of the organisers of the Catalunya Decideix movement, the organisers of the referendum that was taking place the very moment that photo was shot in the streets of Barcelona.

In Spain there is the institution of the "jornada de reflexión", which is usually the Saturday before election Sunday. No electoral propaganda is allowed during 48 hours. Every country I know forbids propaganda at least at election day.

The organisers of the faux referendum had their -book out in the streets nonetheless.

This, if nothing else, shows how faux the referendum was, and what its organisers thought of democracy, and of the people they called on to participate. It was a farce, a scam.

They will be repeating it all over again. They have already started.

Undemocratic beyond any reasonable doubt.



Update:
More here and here.



81 comments:

  1. The html formatting of this text sucks, thanks a lot blogger!

    Works barely for Chrome and Firefox, if your still on that Micro-Soft browser, your fault.

    I'm sorry.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Very good analysis, but, unfortunately, it's quite obvious that they don't care about such "trifles". After reading your article they'll probably say, "OK, big deal, so what? Spain continues to plunder and oppress us, and that's what you should be writing about, you Spanish nationalist".
    When you are convinced that there's a "higher good", the way you intend to achieve it doesn't matter much.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you. What worries me is that with such ways you cannot construct a democratic state. So everybody should care and work to improve these things. I am quite sure that the huge majority of Catalans, even those who'd vote for independence, don't care for the Catalan Lands in such sense. They might want to tell this to the pancatalan minority.

      As a matter of fact, a political consensus might have to be reached that an independent Catalonia would not try to change the present borders (of of what is now the comunidad autónoma).

      Delete
  3. A locally well known attempt at solving the ambiguity of the term "Catalan nation" dates from 1985. It is an essay by Josep Guia, be my guest and search this blog for background on him, with the title "Call it Catalonia".

    The title is program.

    Here's the text:

    http://psan.cat/llibres/digueu-li/digueu-li.pdf

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ah, stupid me. The Sobirania i Progrés manifesto mentioned in the text should be quoted for the elegant way it connects the dots between "Catalan society"/"our society" and the Catalan Lands.

      "The platform Sobirania i Progrés is is made up of a group of people from different walks of Catalan society who share the idea that the well-being of our society depends on attaining full political sovereignty.

      Without sovereignty the Catalan Lands can not attain..."

      Or let's take the speech by one of SiP's leaders. Joel Joan begins by saying "we are a nation" to then claim the sovereignty of the Catalan Lands as the common objective of all the people, however different, that integrate the platform.

      http://www.sobiraniaiprogres.cat/noticies.php?uri=presentacio-de-sobirania-i-progres-parlament-de-joel-joan-1

      Delete
  4. Òmnium Cultural speaks of the Catalan Lands as "el país" (the country).

    http://flamadelcanigo.omnium.cat/ca/noticia/prop-de-350-poblacions-catalanes-rebran-aquest-dissabte-la-flama-del-canigo-6109.html

    When Artur Mas speaks of "the country" he means only Catalonia proper.

    Country, another ambiguous expression.

    ReplyDelete
  5. One small detail, the Catalan emblematic peak called "the Canigo" is in neighbouring France.
    If Catalonia ever attains independence, everyday life will start being quite hard, for many obvious reasons, but the tantra will stay, it will surely be Spains fault, and the reason given will be that the Catalonian Empire is not complete, and of course difficulties will never be due to the incompetence of local politics.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Tantra was a nice one, but thanks for insisting on that point. The national significance of the Canigó is well put in http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canig%C3%B3.

      Delete
  6. Now that we've had a look at the bigger picture of pancatalanism, let's look at the expansionist ambitions of Catalonia proper. Just like there are a lesser and a greater jihad in Islam, there is also a lesser version of pancatalanism.

    In La Franja of Aragon Artur Mas's CDC party has a sister party called CDF. In Catalonia North (France) there is a CDC that has its own direction, but is also part of the territorial structure of CDC in Barcelona. Which makes Artur Mas the president also of CDC in France.

    Not legally, most probably, but, well.... nationally. In the lesser pancatalan sense.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. OMG CDF has really a lot to say.

      http://www.cdfranja.cat

      Delete
  7. França és un estat democràtic. Si hi ha gent a Perpinyà que vol militar a CDC, pot fer el que vulgui. Si vols discutir de política, molt bé, però això de comparar els catalans de Fraga o Perpinyà amb la jihad islàmica és propi d'un fanàtic incult. Ves a llegir nenet, et falta molt encara per aprendre, tens un nivell massa baix per discutir de política, no ets capaç de passar de la desqualificació i l'insult.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To those who haven't lived in Spain I must convey my observation that you show the regular mix of ignorance and arrogance. In other words, the Pyrenees are really, really high.

      Please do read up on the concepts of greater and lesser jihad. Do also read the entry again, which you haven't understood a bit.

      Happy to serve you. Please come again!

      Delete
  8. Els Pirineus és on em vaig criar, i sé perfectament que quan creues la frontera s'emprenyen molt si els dius que no són catalans. La frontera existeix pels nacionalistes amargats com tu, però no per la bona gent que hi vivim. Si us plau, no parlis en nom de la bona gent de la Franja ni de la Catalunya del Nord. No ens representes ni volem que ens defensis de res. Ocupat dels teus problemes i deixa'ns tranquils.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So, you do represent other people. Interesting.

      Delete
  9. Disculpa? En tot cas he parlat en nom de la meva família.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You got a large family, man.

      Delete
    2. As you can see they are all brothers, the ones in Spain are oppressed but happy, and the ones in France are happy and making money thanks to the catalans that live in Spain, so it's true, they are all happy.
      The catalans that live in France speak in french, and make a living based on the faith of the catalans that live in Spain, and as long as they remain french, this will continue the same way.
      And to my Knowledge, the people in eastern Aragon, are not catalans.

      Delete
  10. Si, la tenim llarga a casa meva. Per això no estem arreplegats de complexos d'inferioritat, com d'altres. Un avi meu era aragonès, tocant a la franja, al seu poble es parlava aragonès, i ell també va a acabar parlant català. Després hi ha la família que va haver d'exiliar-se perquè els que pensaven com tu els van fotre fora a canonades. Si us plau, et prego que deixis la gent de la Franja i de la Catalunya del Nord, en pau, no en volem saber res dels teus comentaris. Dedica't en els teus problemes i deixa'ns tranquils. Que tinguis un bon dia, noiet.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You really should read more. Especially should you read what the person writes you are attacking. I have left no doubt that I find the position of the Aragonese government unacceptable:

      http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/06/spiral-is-on.html

      And if you "don't want to know about my comments" stop reading them. Fool.

      Delete
    2. If you don't want to know anything about the commentaries in this blog, why do you read it?.

      Delete
  11. Who is more the fool, the fool, or the fool who follows the fool?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm the fool who follows the dealings of other fools to warn them of the consequences of their actions. This exercise is obviously in vain and I feel foolish for extending it further.

      May those who don't heed the warnings classify themselves, too.

      Delete
    2. That's a foolish comment!

      Delete
    3. I think it's wise, but who am I to judge.

      Delete
  12. Sorry, I was referring to the Anon.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Well, it turns out that local/municipal political leaders in the area, oppose the Aragonese Government's move: http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20120704/54320366135/alcaldes-franja-rechazo-aragones-oriental-catalan.html

    I guess they have democratic legitimacy, right?

    Catalonia doesn't threaten anyone, it just so happens that the provincial division of Spain enacted in 1833 was not designed respecting the historic, linguistic and traditional territorial division (counties/comarques and diocese borders). As a matter of fact, up until 1995, many of the Franja parishes were part of the diocese of Lleida. Would it be so difficult for you to provide some additional/historical context?

    Ah, of course it would not, but as a journalist working for LA VOZ DE BARCELONA, Candide has a clear anti-Catalan political agenda.

    If, as you claim in your title, you provide "analysis and research", you could be more objective and provide balanced information. In the meanwhile, anti-Catalan activists do not have any objection in creating an artificial denomination for Catalan ("Aragonés oriental"), something tantamount to talking about "Eastern Colombian" or "Northern Argentinean" when describing Latin-American Spanish.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Seriously, man, what is wrong with you? I've written about the issue here

      http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/06/spiral-is-on.html

      There I criticise the Aragonese Government.

      No, I'm not working for La Voz. I have no time for it.

      Delete
    2. The link you refer to only provides a very partial view of this situation.

      You have worked at La Voz, haven't you? Let your readers know.

      Why talking about "Pancatalanism" when the most forceful protest against these measures comes from people living in these counties/comarques?

      It is long overdue for you to disclose your identity and political agenda.

      Delete
    3. Yes, and I'll fetch you the soap immediately.

      Delete
    4. It is interesting how the meme of La Franja "leaving" Catalonia in 1833, with the new division in provinces, is so extended among the pancatalanists. So, what North American says, "it just so happens that the provincial division of Spain enacted in 1833 was not designed respecting the historic, linguistic and traditional territorial division (counties/comarques and diocese borders)" does not say La Franja was Catalan before 1833, but it seems to imply it, without being factually incorrect.

      So, for people that do not pay attention, they read "Spain robbed Catalonia of La Franjay". For those paying attention, if they say something, North American can always retreat and say he is factually correct. There is no better way of lying, than telling the truth (I don't know if someone has said this before, but if not, I'm claiming it as mine ;) This is typical for all nationalism, but specially for the Catalan and the Basque ones. A similar level of deceit can be found in ¿Qué tenía Fraga para que todos la desearan?. I don't even think they are doing it on purpose, they just don't get to see any other information, and they accept as fact what they read from other people that think like they do. That's the definition of inbreeding.

      To make things clear, Fraga is Aragonese at least since the 14th century (according to the Gran Enciclopedia Catalana since the 15th c.) It is funny that the only delimitation that linked Fraga and Lerida is the religious one, the one that is always mentioned by pancatalanists. Taking into account that the Bishop of Lerida was the one from Roda de Isabena, so an Aragonese bishop, the argument should actually be the other way round... Lerida belongs to Aragon. To make things clear Fraga was a barony dependent of the King and did not ever belong to the Marquisate of Lerida; the Bajo Cinca/Baix Cinca never was a Catalan comarca. And I'm talking about Fraga because it is the only area where there could be a discussion. North and south of Fraga, all the territories have always been Aragonese, and there is no possible "historical" claim to them.

      I could talk a lot more about the facts that are usually hidden by pancatalanists to advance their arguments, but I'll leave it here. It is really a fascinating subject that helped me to learn to distrust anything a nationalist says, but mainly what Catalan and Basque nationalists say.

      Delete
    5. I really missed your input, Pepón. Thanks!

      Delete
    6. Well, I just discovered you are back. Welcome back!

      Delete
  14. We're not in the shower, no need to drop the soap bar Candide.

    You've made a living working for an anti-Catalan newspaper and you refuse to disclose your links to the anti-Catalan movement; well, I guess it is much easier for you to slander and distort reality behind anonymity. How convenient, isn't it?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Fara cosa potser d'un parell d'anys que porto llegint de tant en tant comentaris incendiaris teus en multitud de llocs web. Fa una estona a YouTube n'he vist uns quants més i he decidit buscar el teu blog que recordava haver vist fa temps. Em mata la curiositat, Candide. Quina és la teva història?

    - Jautenim

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Incendiaris? Quins?

      And so starts another of those hilarious dialogues in which the accuser never comes up with even one quote to base her accusation on.

      Delete
    2. No t'estic acusant de res, no cal que et posis a la defensiva. Va, retiro l'adjectiu. Ara jo no tens cap excusa per obviar la meva pregunta :)

      La veritat és que el teu personatge em fascina. Pel que he anat llegint políticament tu i jo no podem estar més enfrontats, però llegint els teus comentaris o el teu blog també s'em fa evident que ets una persona molt intel·ligent i amb una cultura i un saber general fora de sèrie que ja voldria tenir jo. Sumat al fet que presuntament ets una persona estrangera que ha vingut a viure aquí et converteix als meus ulls en algú molt interessant.

      En el temps que deus portar aquí ja t'hauràs adonat que aquest és un país de borderlines, no crec que et descobreixi res nou. Ara, també és cert que aquesta gent està perfectament distribuïda entre tots els colors, opcions polítiques i ideologies possibles. El que em crida tant l'atenció és la teva fixació en un col·lectiu determinat, fins al punt d'arribar a obrir un blog com aquest.

      Per això preguntava, per si vols satisfer la meva curiositat i explicar-me una mica la teva experiència personal visquent aqui, com t'has format la teva opinió política, etc. I si no, doncs res.

      - Jautenim

      Delete
    3. Ah, una petita sorpresa. Algú que sembla parlar sincerament, i la seva sinceritat sembla no revelar el de sempre.

      Descansa, home, no estem tan separats. Si tu vols la independència per a Catalunya, ja he dit vàries vegades que no hi estic oposat en principi.

      Jo només dic -i res millor que dir-ho en un comentari a aquesta entrada- que més val que la independència de Catalunya es faci de manera democràtica.

      A diferència d'ltres, no sóc borderline, faig les distinccions necessàries. He seguit el camí a la independència d'altres, els catalans no sou pas els primers. La meva experiència em diu que ho esteu fent d'una manera especialment inacceptable. Vegi aquesta entrada! Vegi moltes altres entrades.

      Ho esteu fent tan malament que fa riure.... Però és clar que ho podeu fer millor! Total, no és cert que cal la crítica per fer les coses millor? O és que estic parlant en un nivell massa teòric?

      Si no sou capaços de millorar, a la merda amb les vostres aspiracions, i perdona'm el meu francès: si continueu pervertint tot el que és gran, i bo i correcte, us mereixeu l'expressió. Quedeu-vos a Espanya, doncs.

      De moment, és l'independentisme català la corrent política que més vulnera els drets individuals. Això és és molt contrari a les vostres aspiracions. Feu-me saber quan us n'heu adonat.

      Delete
    4. És curiosa la insistència dels comentaristes de tall més nacionalista en retreure-li a en Candide que centri les seves crítiques en l'independentisme català en comptes de en tantes altres coses que estan malament al món. Crec que això és molt revelador de com funciona l'aparell propagandístic nacionalista.

      Estan acostumats, ja des de fa uns quants anys, a que els llibres de text, els programes de televisió, els diaris i els polítics catalans dediquin tant de temps i espai a criticar els errors i els abusos d'"Espanya" i "els espanyols" que quan algú critica amb arguments ben raonats el nacionalisme català, se senten totalment descol·locats. Tenen la impressió de que això no està bé, de que traspassa la "línia vermella" d'allò que és admissible, correcte, normal. Quan veuen algun web o blog dedicat a criticar Espanya, no es paren un segon a qüestionar-se per què l'autor se centra en Espanya i no en tantes altres coses que van malament al món.

      Com que no poden criticar en Candide pels seus arguments (perquè no els poden rebatre); llavors el critiquen per la seva manca d'objectivitat (com si ells en fossin, d'objectius!), per les seves intencions ocultes, etc.

      Delete
    5. Sí, la majoria d'arguments d'en Candide acostumen a ser brillants. Per desgràcia no es pot dir el mateix de la teva comprensió lectora, amic Estrany.

      Si en comptes d'escriure sense pensar t'haguéssis parat un moment a assimilar el que he escrit t'hauries adonat de seguida que enlloc critico a en Candide per atacar a qui ataca, l'únic que li he preguntat i que realment m'interessa saber és si volia explicar alguna de les experiències que haguin format la seva opinió política, tenint en compte que vé de fora i en un primer moment imagino que deuria ser neutral en quant a tots aquests temes.

      - Jautenim

      Delete
    6. Has escrit:
      "El que em crida tant l'atenció és la teva fixació en un col·lectiu determinat, fins al punt d'arribar a obrir un blog com aquest."

      Perdona la meva manca de comprensió lectora, però per mi això és una crítica evident, sobretot per l'ús de la paraula "fixació" ("idea fixa, que obsessiona"), que no és gaire neutre.
      Per altra banda, si "et crida l'atenció" és perquè no et sembla "normal". No t'ofenguis, però dubto molt que "et cridi l'atenció" que en Matthew Tree o Patrícia Gabancho, per exemple, tinguin una "fixació" en un col·lectiu determinat, malgrat no ser d'aquí.
      Tanmateix, no em referia ni molt menys a tu en concret; he observat des de fa un temps que són molts els que retreuen a en Candide la seva "fixació", i el teu comentari simplement m'ho ha recordat. És cert que en general tens una actitud molt més oberta i dialogant que la immensa majoria de nacionalistes que visiten aquest blog.

      Delete
    7. Peace, brothers. Has començat malament, Jau, i hi ha ja massa mala experiència. Només has de mirar un xic més amunt. Allò de la comprensió lectora no era tampoc agradable.

      Però ja estem entesos que vens de bon rotllo, així que pau, amics.

      Per cert, l'anglès és la llengua preferida. Així que si pots...

      Delete
    8. My apologies. Even though I spend most of my time on the Internet reading in English I can't help feeling clumsy when I have to write something myself.

      Nevertheless I'll try to stick to this rule if I am to post in your blog ever again. Bona nit.

      - Jautenim

      Delete
    9. It's not a rule, it was just a request. And you're doing pretty fine. Thanks.

      Delete
  16. Ah mira, doncs encara tenim alguns punts en comú, fins ara no t'havia llegit mai res semblant a aquest comentari.

    Jo mateix també m'avergonyeixo de tant en tant veient quina classe d'arguments decideixen fer servir alguns elements per defensar la independència. En més d'una ocasió t'he vist apallissant dialècticament a algún d'aquests, i sovint aconsegueixes que em posi de part teva encara que cregui en el mateix projecte polític que l'altre.

    Ara bé, dit això, no puc compartir aquesta generalització tan barroera que fas.
    Mitjançant expressions com "Ho esteu fent tan malament que..." o "Si no sou capaços de..." ens estàs ficant a mi i a tots els catalans (independentistes, suposo) en un mateix sac per etiquetar-nos a gust com a feixistes o antidemòcrates.
    Sincerament, em costa molt de creure que durant la teva estada aquí no haguis conegut ni un sol independentista que no et faci patir ni es mereixi adjectius com "cataloonie" :) Realment és així?



    Per cert, si em dónes alguns noms de païssos que consideris que han dut a terme un procés d'independència 'acceptable' em pasaré uns dies documentant-me, com tu mateix has dit l'autocrítica mai està de més.

    - Jautenim

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Tens raó les generalitzacions són perilloses. Ara bé, te n'adones que no critico generalment als catalans, mentre que sí als nacionalistes. Aquesta és una generalització política raonada en tot els textos que pots llegir aquí.

      Jo no veig res de bo ni en la manera d'argumentar ni en la manera de fer de l'actual nacionalisme català. Cada dia em fa més repelús, ho sento. Resulta que si observes els líders del moviment una estona veus que diuen unes tremendes parides que revelen que no tenen ni puta idea del seu propi tema estrella. I pitjor encara, els és igual. No volen aprendre. Autocrítica zero. Petit exemple recent, Quim Torra avui al Singular: "guanyar per majoria absoluta unes eleccions amb un programa independentista, o un referèndum pel 55%, per exemple (que és el % que es va exigir a Kosovo)". La cursiva és meva.

      Això intoxica la gent. Tinc amics entre els indepes i els dic clarament el que penso. Segueixen sent amics meus perquè tenen moltes qualitats bones. (Espero que diguin el mateix de mi.) Els adjectius que uso aquí són dins un context polític, no pretenc descriure les persones.

      Una independència ben feta? Mira aquí

      http://iberosphere.com/2012/04/spain-news-5966/5966

      El trist és que mentre la realitat ofereix molt de què aprendre, aquest univers paral.lel sembla autista.

      Delete
  17. Jautenim, What's the difference between winning a race because of hard work and training and winning it because of performance enhancing drugs? The second case is cheating, and we turn our backs on cheaters, dispossess them of their trophies and ban them from further participation. Quite rightly, as they have ruined the race and wasted the time and efforts of all the other competitors.
    The means do matter. And its the means that stink in catalan nationalism.The talking heads of catalan nationalism are shameful, simply an embarrassment - if you don't like being generalised about, and recognize this ,then you might raise your voice in support of more honourable leaders and demand -not allegiance - but accountability.
    By the way, I notice that despite your flattery, Candide has not yet given up any identifying personal details (why so many nationalists are so keen on identifying Candide is a mystery, albeit a spooky one) But keep looking!! If that's your fixation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey man slow down, I can just recall having declared myself to be a secessionist. That is, I do believe that we Catalans would be in general terms better off with an state of our own rather than being part of the Spanish one. Nothing less, and nothing more. This assertion doesn't imply any support of any kind to any political leaders or parties, nor even implies that I'm a nationalist, see the subtlety here?

      In fact, I even agree with most of this blog entry (say, like 80%) and I hope that when the time comes for an actual referendum, organised by an actual government, those territorial ambiguities will be all cleared and the referendum will strictly concern just the voting territory: that is, Catalonia. Or else I'll not take part in it.

      I must say that I'm having a great time participating in this little debate, and in the meantime I've also realized about an interesting fact. I admit that at first I thought that your political stance was fueled by reasons far beyond rationality, just as in the case of those nationalists which you despise so much.
      But your only real concern seems to be those shameful and embarrassing talking heads (I don't like them that much either) that could eventually (and hopefully) be replaced by more 'honourable' ones, and then you wouldn't oppose to a sovereign Catalan state no matter what, as I initially feared :)

      I'm glad we found some common positions despite our differences, don't you? Now, if you guys could drop that hostile tone towards me in most of your messages... I have no obscure intentions, that is so mean to say.

      - Jautenim

      Delete
    2. That's the whole point. I think most of us who follow this blog aren't rabid Spanish nationalists or anything close to that. I (and I think most other commenters) have nothing against Catalan independence in principle; I'm just appalled by the attitude and rhetoric of most current separatist leaders and intellectuals. I don't want to live i na country ruled by such people (no, I'm not saying Spanish politicians are wonderful,far from it, but they live further away and don't seem as obsessed with controlling everybody's life as local nationalists). I would gladly give my support to a separatist movement that advocated individual freedom, human rights, peaceful coexistence and progress. Unfortunately, right now there doesn't seem to be one.

      Delete
    3. Let's all be patient with each other, guys. Jau, there's been a lot of ill will going around, so do please forgive Estrany's and AZ's initial doubts about you.

      AZ's got an important point, though. If you don't agree with things they are doing on your side of the spectrum you should express that. If you did agree with me on some occasions, why didn't you say so? You'd be doing inside criticism, and that could improve things. Even if it only served to let the world know that there are alternative voices among separatists.

      Alternatives are urgently needed. There's already the next referendum planned by the ANC, and seeing their track record I cannot expect anything positive. Read for example here

      http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/06/illegal-and-proud-of-it.html

      Even IF that referendum does go according to the necessary standards, today it much looks like it will only be conducted in the municipalities that have adhered to the AMI. So it will give a wrong picture, skewed towards one option maybe even with the intention to minorise the competing option, which could be a majority. That would be public pressure of the kind I'd call social engineering.

      If you do a referendum, you do it all over the place, under the same conditions for everybody, and you only do it once. (Not saying it cannot be repeated after some years.) You cannot just go cherrypicking the places that are most favourable to one option and then say this is representative.

      That said, the most basic issues which I do not tire to point out are still far from being resolved: what borders would that Catalan state have? And what would be the minority rights of the Spanish speakers? How can anybody ask about independence if these basic issues are totally unclear?

      And why is there no public debate on them? A few months ago we had a very brief exchange of opinions by six or seven individuals on the linguistic rights of the Spanish speaker in a hypothetically independent Catalonia. That was a good start, but those organisations who promote independence should have made the issue their own and come to a conclusion. I see it as their duty to offer at least a rough draft of what an independent Catalonia would look like.

      Not doing so is misleading, to say the least. Even worse, the ANC is pancatalan. Not having any further information one has to conclude that independence would spell border trouble.

      To sum it up, there's a lot to be done if you want to correct things. And time's in short supply.

      I'm certainly against independence under the present conditions, and with such leaders.

      Delete
  18. In what way(s) do you consider you would be better off separating? I think this is an important question. Because I fear the answer will be but the logical response to decades of falsity. An extrapolation of falsities. Perhaps it will be that Spain "robs" Catalunya, that Spain aspires to cultural genocide in catalunya, or maybe just that Spain doesn't appreciate you or love you anymore...
    The problem here is that after decades of lies, manipulation,coertion, control of the press, social engineering even in schools, in order to build up a critical mass...any referendum is already poisoned. People must have access to the truth in order to be able to decide freely.
    So no, it's not just the leaders who are unnacceptable (and who can be replaced later on..???!! PLEASE, allow me to shake my head in wonder at such reasoning!) NO it's not just the leaders, it's the CAUSE itself - independence = that has been poisoned. It cannot be arrived at falsely. People must have access to the truth, and in catalunya they don't.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My main reason to support independence is the fact that democracy as a system doesn't scale well at all. As a rule of thumb the more people who lives inside the same state the less weight their votes, opinions and protests have, and at the same time the government and the administrations tends to grow fat, opaque and deaf. I think that the US, even with their pure democratic roots, are a good example of this.
      On the other hand we've got small countries like Iceland whose citizens recently even managed to judge their former prime minister and rewrite their own constitution. I even believe that the fact that democracy was first developed in small Greek city states rather than for instance, their contemporaneous Persian Empire, is not a coincidence as well.

      Now, I'm fully aware that there's not a perfect correlation between <#pop in a country, democratic health> but I see this as a potential opportunity that we could take advantage of.

      Besides, in the case of Spain we let a fascist party to lead the process of laying the foundations of our current state. This had it's own advantages at the time (namely to avoid a 2nd full-blown conflict like in the 30s) but it was not a wise move that led to a lot of drawbacks in the long run. So now if we started building a new state from scratch we'd be able to it a lot better without that heavy burden like in La Transición.

      - Jautenim

      Delete
    2. So you'd obviously not go for the whole of the Catalan Lands but for Catalonia proper only as a new state.

      Delete
    3. I think that I've already clearly stated my opinion on this in a previous comment, but I'll try to elaborate on this matter a little more.

      Unlike in Catalonia the citizens of Aragon, Valencia and the Balearic Islands have always massively voted to the orthodox Spanish parties, namely PP and PSOE, like in every other place of the state. It is totally clear that only people living in Catalonia seeks independence to some noticeable degree, and even though we all share a common language and culture the right thing to do is to keep these other autonomous communities out of an hypothetical secession process.
      I understand the Catalan Lands as a cultural rather than a political concept or entity, but it is true that there are some people out there who doesn't seem to appreciate that difference.

      - Jautenim

      Delete
    4. Actually, those "people out there who doesn't seem to appreciate that difference" is basically all separatist organisations and parties. And it's them who are calling all the shots. Even Mas has bowed to their whims.

      You'll certainly agree that borders are one of the essential issues that define any state. Which brings me to the question above that has remained unanswered: why don't you and others, who are being seriously fucked with, and forgive my French, go out there and tell these people what you think?

      I guess you did participate in the referendum that's the object of this entry, so you've been messed with big time already. This is not my country, but even I'm getting angry. Why don't you?

      Because you share the same aim? No you don't, theirs is the Catalan Lands. That's not the same aim. And even if you did, all the angrier should you get when you see it abused.

      To be quite clear here, if I haven't before: I reckon that even the majority of the potential pro independence voters does not think Catalan Lands when it thinks independence. And that would mean that a minority is making fools of you.

      Delete
    5. Because it's not in my nature to get angry haha. No, really, I think it's because we all know that those organisations will not certainly get away with this, no matter what.

      Candide, do you really think that if the Catalan government was to held an official poll with Spain's and EU's consent could there be any kind of ambiguity regarding the new borders?

      - Jautenim

      Delete
    6. Are you serious? You got these things in black and white like Mein Kampf (no, I am not making a comparison in terms of content) and also in action like the faux referendum, and you still think this is not happening? Can you quote anything to base such a happy vision on?

      As to your question, I have consequently to say yes, there would be ambiguity. At least a perceived one. Mas and almost all of his ministers have participated in the Grosskatalonien referendum, so which way are we going to read that?

      Which way do you think they're reading it in Madrid? Oh, they know Mas is rather an opportunist than an extremist, but when the extremists have the upper hand ideology-wise, that's not really a relief.

      The ambiguity is there, and the separatist/nationalist side should make a move to be very clear about its objectives. I pointed you to the article that compared Catalonia to Slovenia. There never was the shred of a doubt in Austria about the territorial ambitions of Slovenia, which is why it helped during the Ten Day War.

      France and Spain would certainly deserve the same treatment, and with them the whole EU.

      Delete
    7. Hey you stepped on the red line back there with that Mein Kampf reference, but never mind...

      I don't know what else to say, for I'd have answered nein to the same question. I just can't imagine a true binding poll in Catalonia hijacking the will of the people in Aragon, Valencia, Southern France etc.
      Maybe you are way too paranoid or either I am way too naive, I can't honestly tell because I don't have proper arguments beyond common sense to dispel your concerns.

      But in due time we'll see how the real poll finally turns out, and if you don't mind I'll then drop by your blog again to carry on our little debate with more insight on the matter.

      - Jautenim

      Delete
    8. I said, no reference to content of Mein Kampf. Just the fact that well announced intentions cannot be ignored.

      Common sense also told the Bosnians that there would be no war. Or did it? I agree that no official poll in Catalonia would be that ambiguous. But the point is that the whole independence movement is, and Catalonia becoming independent will only boost the pancatalanism that pretends to bring independence to other communities afterwards.

      Can I use the word Anschluss here?

      In order for neighbouring states not to be afraid of that there would have to be a public statement carried by all Catalan parties that would guarantee the borders. And it better come now, that would ease tensions. This would be the way to dispel concerns, as you put it.

      Delete
  19. If I may be allowed to barge in, and if Candide sees fit to print this my humble contribution to his blog, I would like to add my thoughts to this chat on the subject of whether, how and when Catalonia should gain independence from Spain. But first, may I say that after reading (most) of the "conversations" in this blog, I get the feeling that this is a one man show, with ready-made questions & answers arguments and counter arguments, and with just one clear aim. As someone who occasionally is also in the habit of talking to himself, I believe I can spot a fellow self-talker a mile away. Candide reminds me of my uncle the ventriloquist, a very fine person so please do not take umbrage. In fact I may even be one of his dummies (I’ve been called worse, so spare me). But then again, my perceptions may be incorrect and this may not be an attack of the clones, in which case I take it all back. Anyway, regarding Catalonia’s aspiration for independence. Candide says it should be by democratic process. Noble thought, and most people would agree EXCEPT that as History has proven time and time again, the words Spain and Democracy are like chalk and cheese. When self-serving laws controlled by those in power in Madrid erode every relevant democratic right of those seeking a referendum in Catalonia, there ain’t much of a difference between Spain’s "democracy" and quasi dictatorships. Sad as such a situation is, in my opinion, Catalans are entitled to strife for independence any which way they can. Just like Spain is trying to halt this process any which way she can, including engaging in the kind of propaganda she’s infamous for (sounds familiar?). In the absence of a fair compromise, this seems to be a case of "and never the twain shall meet". When two parties cannot agree on "rules of engagement", unfortunately there’s no option but to revisit that old adage "all’s fair in love and war". Thus, I’m afraid that arguing either way is as futile as trying to brake into Ford Knox’s safe with a wooden toothpick.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So you actually think that introducing yourself with the thought that there's a kind of C-Watch conspiracy against its readers (in fact, in such light there might be no readers at all) is the right thing to introduce your political views that there's a kind of Spanish conspiracy against Catalans?

      Man, even if you were right nothing obligates Catalan nationalists to use methods as described in this entry when the same aim can be achieved by democratic means and without much extra effort. The first ones to suffer this lack of democratic attitude are the Catalans themselves. Or what do you think I'm worried about when I deplore a lack of democracy? I care for the people, not the state.

      What's that about "self-serving laws controlled by those in power in Madrid erode every relevant democratic right of those seeking a referendum in Catalonia"? The usual whining about not getting an official referendum? Self-determination can be exercised in a multitude of ways. There are the relevant democratic rights of freedom of speech and freedom of association in Spain. There is a functioning multi-party system, in which all kinds of political options can be offered, even secession.

      Other countries might not be so kind to separatist parties, in fact there's a provision in the German Constitution that would make it possible to outlaw them.

      You may think that I'm writing all the comments here, but please don't think I'm an idiot.

      Delete
    2. Wow, I thought I might have been touching a raw nerve here, but it seems I’ve touched more than just one. Never mind. BTW, I certainly don’t think you’re an idiot. I don’t know what might have given you that impression. Rest assured I’d never say a thing like that. Even if it crossed my mind. And I’m sorry if my intrusion to your blog has caused any concerns, as this definitely wasn’t my intention. I was simply trying to point out that in my opinion, barring some radical changes in the Spanish and/or Catalan positions, there’s never going to be agreement between both parties. On parting, however, I must say that there’s one thing I have in common with you. I also care for the people. And being part Catalan myself, I regard Catalans as my people. Cheers.

      Delete
    3. You're way from touching a nerve by just repeating the usual nationalist baloney as if a simple look at reality would not suffice to call the bluffs. I've grown used to that attitude.

      Delete
  20. Your opinions, anon, are a perfect example of my point. Perfect. Falsities. (outright lies just sounds so vulgar, doesn't it?)
    May I remind you that the "self serving laws" you speak of - the Constitution - were overwhelmingly voted for by the catalans. As well as the other regions of Spain. Likening Spain's democracy to a quasi dictatorship can only be explained as psychological projection on your part , and so on and so forth. Really these are the smokescreen arguments of a few rather nasty people with an agenda,(and their trusty followers), and are the reason why the separatist movement disqualifies itself.
    The truth will out in the end, as the platitude goes,(and in fact is already coming out - otherwise you wouldn't be writing on this page (a "one man show" - if it's more than one man it's more difficult to deal with, right? Heaven forbid one man's dissent should be joined by others!).
    Get used to it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AZ , whatever makes you happy. I’d only like you clarify that I’m neither a liar nor a nasty sod. I’m sure you must be a very nice person. You certainly come across that way. Have a good live.

      Delete
    2. I meant to say "life" ... slip of the fingers.

      Delete
  21. Anon, I just love the way nationalists here resort to hurt feelings when they've run out of arguments. I wonder if this is peculiar to Cat. or has always been the case (in nationalisms of other times and places.....it-nationalism- has been tried before you know!)
    Anyway, I'll take your word for it that you're not a liar. However, the only explanation for all those un-truths then is that you're deluded -brainwashed?- in which case , my comiserations.
    That you're not nasty just might be true too, if you are a victim of the brainwashing here - but otherwise the rather heavy and belaboured irony in your posts belies that.
    If you have been to school here in the last 20-30 years, all I can suggest is that there's a lot of information out there and with internet it's not difficult to find reliable sources of information, to contrast with what they told you and most importantly how they made you "feel" at school. Likewise if the brainwashing came from home - look at other sources, inform yourself!

    ReplyDelete
  22. Very nice indeed. It must be unreal to "know" that you possess the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and those who think otherwise are nothing but a bunch of misguided and brainwashed "nationalists". I envy you. I’m also sure you and your mate candide (or is it your alter ego?) have no intention to brainwash anybody. You’re just blessing others with your knowledge of real, democratic "facts". Could have fooled me. With friends like you one doesn’t need enemies. My short sojourn here has, unfortunately, added extra weight to my fears that Spanish nationalism is as blind and deceiving as it always has been, and that yes, never the twain shall meet. So be it. I will take your advice, though, and seek information elsewhere for here one can only find a clear and preconceived distortion of reality. Have fun with yourself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You do realise you've mostly been talking about the blog and the people who participate here, but much less about the issues?

      But I'll follow you there once more: Where is there Spanish nationalism in the entries of this blog? Its author is not Spanish, nor do I want to be. I don't care for the state as such, nor for any state for that matter. A nationalist would not say so.

      But then again, I'm the devil, the devil is cunning, he'd come in any disguise and he'd say anything to lead you astray.

      On the other hand, maybe I'm Artur Mas... And this blog is only there to reveal how devilish Spanish nationalism can be.

      Delete
  23. So anyone who is not a Catalan nationalist is a Spanish nationalist?? This, precisely, is part of the hype. I´m not a nationalist of any sort, though that may be hard for you to digest.
    p.s. I don´t pretend to be your friend, or your enemy, so I´m immune to that little ploy I´m afraid.
    Can you refute that the "self serving laws" you speak of were not voted for by the Catalans? Can you give some actual examples to back up your claim that Spain is a "quasi dictatorship"? etc.
    Of course not.
    It´s enough to go on chanting the so oft repeated nationalist propaganda in the hope that the facts (facts do exist, things do happen out there in the real world, not everything is relative! e.g. The Constitution was actually voted for by an overwhelming percentage of Catalans.This fact won´t go away. If you don´t like this you are free to work for a revision - within the democratic system, you have the means at your disposal.)..(in the hope that the facts) will be buried, drowned out by your mantras.
    Good bye, and I wish you the same masturbatory pleasure...oops! I see now you were probably trying to tell me(subtly) that I´m all alone, poor me!
    Ha! I don´t think so.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think the fact that a majority of Catalans voted in favor of the Spanish constitution is of any relevance, what I think is the important factor, is that a majority of Spanish people voted in favor of the constitution, What I mean is: The unit that count is Spain and not Catalonia, if not, then we would have to take into account what the majority of the people in Barcelona, Girona or Angles vote.

      Delete
  24. Juan Carlos, I agree. The only relevance the catalan vote has is that it proves that the Constitution was not imposed (by "self serving" Madrid of course) on the Catalans, that they voted freely in favour of it, as did the other regions.
    And to extrapolate a little bit...that the conflict is not Catalunya against "Madrid" , which they would like us to believe - but within Catalunya itself, a minority of Catalans working against the majority of Catalans. As I see it, this minority has set themselves up as the vanguard, the saint Jordi battling the Dragon (Madrid) and demand as repayment that the mojority of catalans swallow the odd bitter pill (e.g. the linguistic "immersion" - only for the Spanish speakers amongst us of course! And the corruption, which is a "secreto a voces" here and has been for decades, but it's part of the peaje we pay for having our Saint Jordis out there taking the blows for us.....and , anyway, we don't want trouble... having lived through 40 years of imposition passively, what difference does it make if it comes from our own now ?)

    ReplyDelete
  25. I am reading LIT (Lingua Tertii Imperii) from Viktor Klemperer, a fascinating read. Actually, it should be compulsory reading at school. I highly recommend it. The thing is that I am right now very sensitive to manipulation through language, 1984 style, and find there is a lot of that going on, mainly in the economic area, but also in the neocon field, that has been oozing into normal language.

    But here I wanted to talk about the Lingua Cathalanii Imperii (LCI; please bear my Latin ;) on the example you can find here, on the expression "Paisos Catalans". Oh, we all know what it means: a neologism that is equivalent to "the areas where Catalan is spoken". This is exemplified by La Franja, where they divide the area on municipal level to distinguish clearly where the border is. But then, why are the Castillian-speaking areas in Valencia always included? They often then change the definition to "the areas where Catalan is official language". Ok, but then you cannot include "Catalunya Nord" (another LCI expression). So it changes to "the areas where Catalan is traditional", which leaves Valencia as a problem again.

    The only solution to this riddle is to accept that Paisos Catalans is a political construct, with political intention, and that it is the equivalent to the "Greater Catalonia" other nationalistic movements have, were they try to pack as much territory as they can get away with. Where the LCI comes in is in the creation of a new expression that shrouds the real meaning, dressing it up as something it is not.

    This is typical of LCI/LTI languages, in that they allow different readings to different people: the dangerous internal level, "we know what we mean among us", where the real face and meaning is seen or at least understood, and the cozy politically-correct external level, "this is just something else, don't be daft", where they show the meaning fit for society. In this case, there is the dangerous imperial meaning of Greater Catalonia, and the innocuous linguistic meaning. When you discuss the point with nationalists, they will always signal the second usage and counter attack by telling you, you are perverting their message, you are a bad person!

    It does not necessarily mean that one person does both, everyone can pick the meaning they prefer, but it's not uncommon to see both meanings used by the same person depending on the situation. So this kind of language helps the creation of a hypocritical and closed society, using a different language code for those within and those without the ideological border. Fent país...

    Another characteristic of LCI/LTI is that you cannot escape it. You cannot ignore it, and if you do not use the expression "Paisos Catalans", and use instead for instance "Greater Catalonia", then you look like a fascistic dork from the PP. So even people that are against Catalan nationalism are compelled to use a language that advances a cause that is not theirs. This also signals who has the upper hand in the discussion: the one that defines and names concepts.

    Perverse, isn't it? But again, fascinating.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "When you discuss the point with nationalists, they will always signal the second usage and counter attack by telling you, you are perverting their message, you are a bad person!"

      Happened to me a few days ago. I expressed unease that separatism is being led by pancatalan organisations to someone who I would not even describe as a nationalist. I was surprised at the vehemence with which he criticised me for using "an argument of the far right, that has invented this expression" of the Catalan Lands.

      He didn't mean literally invented, but rather coined its use as an argument "against Catalonia". Nevertheless, an interesting twist.

      Also the expression "fascist" seems to have gained a new use. Everything that is against Catalan nationalism is being called fascism, I guess not only because of Franco, but quite simply because both things, criticising Catalan nationalism and defending fascism, are bad, so they must be one. That voids fascism of any other meaning, which in turn makes proto-fascist attitudes possible again, see the part about Marta Alòs's article here:

      http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/07/perversion.html

      In consequence, it makes it difficult to warn where this ethnic ultra-nationalism is going. Catalan nationalism is simply a good thing, it also has been voided of any other meaning (or it has too many meanings, which is almost the same). Being good, it cannot be criticised.

      The debate has reached a black/white level on which concepts such as democracy suffer the same mutation as others mentioned above. Democracy is simply good, Catalan nationalism is good, hence Catalan nationalism must be democratic. And democracy must lead to the fulfilment of nationalism, i.e. independence. If it does not, it's not democracy.

      Criticising, as I do, present Catalan separatism as undemocratic simply does not compute, the identification of democracy with nationalism, and ultimately with being Catalan, prevents the argument from being understood. These are now by definition the good things, and nothing else.

      By that "logic", anything you say against nationalism is bad. And it's against Catalans. So it's inherently fascist.

      And round it goes. We are not talking the same language anymore.

      The ultimate twist now is that you can do anything for independence.

      This is not a planned redefinition of language, as in LTI. I have forgotten what Klemperer says about that part of the issue, when simply an inertia kicks in and no guiding hand is needed. Would be great if you could give more input, Pepón.

      I have sometimes described Catalan nationalism as this wondrous thing that functions like a totalitarian system, in democracy. All the fallacies are based on a single one. Catalans have arguably been many times in history victims. And the victim is right. And good.

      You don't have to be a nationalist to fall victim to this. It is enough if you define yourself as Catalan. This is the sad thing. Klemperer is right, it really works.

      Delete
    2. Klemperer sees the origin of the LTI, and of totalitarianism as a whole, in the German Romanticism of the 18th and 19th c. He says that the origin of everything is the romantic idea that the sentiment, the feeling, is above everything else, including reason (if I remember right, Hannah Arendt says something similar, even though she gives antisemitism a more important role). He gives some examples of LTI from the 20s. He even finds LTI in the texts of a Jewish author, Theodor Herzl, one of the creators of Zionism, long before the Nazis came to power. So, to consider that LTI was a planned redefinition of language is not accurate. Only after the Machtergreifung and the Gleichschaltung did the Nazis have the power to willfully shape the language and converted it into a terribly refined tool, but the LTI’s foundations were firmly laid long before.

      Personally I don’t think that initially there was a planned redefinition of language, later on, that’s another subject. Just like communism/communists did have (or still have) their own language (or neocons/managers, often called "newspeak" as in 1984), most ideologies redefine language without the need of it being planned or even deliberate. This is not bad in itself, and might be a even natural process in philosophy and in thinking new ways. I have done it here myself, naming the LCI. The problem is when your objective is not to shed light on the situation (as in the communist case, at least in the beginning), but when your objective is to confuse people, to shroud your message, so as to scam everyone into letting you get away with something (as neocons/managers or politicians do). To me, LCI belongs to the second group.

      We could make an interesting list of words belonging to the LCI, as we have already mentioned a couple, "democracy", "fascism", "freedom", "(Catalan) nationalist", "(Spanish) nationalist", "espanyol", "Catalunya Nord", "La Franja", "Valencia" vs. "País Valencià", "Espanya" vs. "Estat espanyol", even "Catalunya" belongs to the group of words whose meaning has been changed.

      On your last point: interesting thought about the origin of Catalan nationalism. My conclusion has been that Catalan nationalists think themselves superior, sentiment that comes from an inferiority complex. You can see I’m not so far from you, as the "victimhood" can be reinterpreted as an "inferiority complex", and the "victim is good. And right" can be reinterpreted as "we are better than you".

      Delete
    3. Klemperer says that language became poor though LTI, which is certainly true for LCI too. I'm more interested in the thought that LCI goes a step further. It represents an extreme impoverishment of the language.

      Klemperer gives the example of the term "fanatism", the meaning of which underwent a huge change in the Third Reich. It became positive. I don't think LCI does quite the same. I don't find single words gaining new meanings, but semantic fields being built up, exactly two: Good and Bad.

      In either field the words are put, and from then on they have no other meaning any more but just to represent their field, and by association their companions from the same field.

      Without trying to be exhaustive:
      Good is: Catalan-language-culture-democracy-freedom. Rights.
      Bad is: Spanish-politics-fascism-army. Law.

      That does not mean that there is no Spanish language, or that there are no politicians in Catalonia. It just means that they are able to defend linguistic rights in Catalonia, but only for Catalan speakers. Language-Catalan-good.

      And politics is being largely avoided in Catalonia. They're more into the movement sector, what they call "civil society". Which they only call so when... you guessed it, when it defends Catalan national interests.

      Rights and law are quite special spot here, because they are seen as antagonists. Catalans are seen to have rights, both things are good. So Catalans may ignore the law, because it's Spanish law, and those two things are bad.

      Other people don't have the same rights, because "rights" belongs into the Catalan field.

      There's almost a reflex reaction attached to the terms of either group. There is nothing more to it. Absolute poverty.

      I know this is a radical idea and it still needs a lot of thought. But it would explain why thought processes are so poor in this corner of the world. I mean ridiculously poor, and that's a phenomenon I have been writing about in this blog. That's how my Funny Folks series was possible, to give just one example.

      I do not mean that all thought processes go the same way. Just the ones that spark the use of LCI. It's like you throw a switch, and people suddenly go dumb.

      Note:
      I did write a bit about language manipulation here
      http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/curiosities-of-language-use-in-this.html

      In the light of our discussion I was not spot-on then.

      Delete
    4. PS: Actually, what I'm describing here is a belief system. Aka a claptrap.

      That's why it's so dumb. It's so pure.

      Delete
  26. I don't know if I understand completely what you are saying. You are fully right when you say Klemperer means the LTI was a poor language. And LCI is a poor language too, that is clear. But I don't see this difference in quality you mention, only in quantity. On one hand, you cannot expect that the language creation of a relatively small group of Catalan nationalists to equal the creation of one of the culture nations of Europe at its best (remember Mann, Brecht, Hesse, Kaftka, Rilke, Remarque, to mention a few; not that I am saying they had anything to do with LTI, I'm just mentioning the general cultural level at the time). On the other, you could also divide LTI like you did with LCI:
    Good was: Deutschland – Arier – Reinrassig – etc.
    Bad was: International – Jude – Mischling – etc.

    I also see the change of meaning in many words. You have mentioned already some, but I could bring the example of the word "espanyol", that has gone form being a neutral denominator to being an insult, or the word "nosaltres"/"nostre", that has gone from meaning "us"/"ours" to meaning "Catalans"/"we consider it as Catalan". By the very end of the Dictatorship, "patriota" was a derided word only used by the fascist remnants, with a negative undertone that you can still see in many areas in Spain; in Catalonia it is now expected from you to be a good Catalan patriot, and you can hear the word used with normalcy on the street. Of course, you can divide these words in good and bad categories (us = good / they = bad), but so you can in LTI or with any other neawspeak.

    Maybe it's just that I'm older and have been following the transformation longer, but probably it's just that I'm being slow. So, the solution is, you think it over, and make another of your great posts to explain in easy terms to dimwitted brains like mine what you mean ;)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You're getting somewhere, but I'm not convinced yet. The existence of the good/bad dichotomy in other newspeaks does not invalidate my argument that in this one that's the only thing that happens. Neither does the existence of words that fit into neither category, like "patriotism" or "nationalism".

      We have to think more to disprove my theory. Yes, we.

      Delete
  27. As you know, I was involved in preparing and organising the 10-A referendum, and I think I still have editing rights at the website.

    Having read closely your posts here I recognise that I was completely duped, not having the aims of the exercise explained clearly to me, and lazily enough, not enquiring closely into what was going on.
    So my contribution was to what I thought was an exercise in democratic self-determination and was actually a kind of clandestine virtual territory grab? Makes me quite angry.

    If it's any consolation, having attended the inaugural meeting of the ANC, and seeing that the Catalan Lands claim was the central plank of their platform, I refused to collaborate any further with them, as I thought they were cranks. I'm still on the ANC mailing list and many of the messages I receive confirm that view.

    I live in hope of a truly democratic and transparent independence platform appearing. Having tried to make ERC see sense on this and the language issue, and failing badly, and having seen the grim manipulations of ANC at close range, it is a tribute to my optimism (or stupidity) that I can STILL imagine a Catalan state coming into being which respects human rights and doesn't try to invade France.

    But will the nutters be in the driving seat forever? I'm having a hard time convincing moderates of how scary their more radical colleagues really are.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Murph, That's an interesting post.
    I'd just like to suggest that your hope for a democratic and transparent independance movement would actually defeat the idea of separatism in the long run. That people need a VERY good reason to initiate big changes, and we've shown ourselves to be almost immobile in the face of change in the past (not only politically but also personally)...so that for independence to to reach its goals I think it's necessary for them to lie and manipulate as they have done for 30 years..
    In fact, if you subtract the lies about Spanish perfidy and robbery from the separatist argument what good reasons are you left with for seccession??
    What I'm trying to say is that they are doing what they have to do in order to reach their goals. They are breaking all the basic "rules" along the way, but they are getting results (slowly). Your ethical independence movement would leave them where they began, with a tiny percentage of followers, and no hope of power (and glory!).

    ReplyDelete